Let´s have a dog-interview!

Genesis Breyer P Orridge (Photo by Drew Weidemann)

A conversation with Genesis Breyer P Orridge

Genesis Breyer P-Orridge is well known for her/his groundbreaking artistic work with Throbbing Gristle in the 80s. Since then s/he kept on challenging the world with music, art and also body-political  moves (more on these topics in an earlier published Kaput feature on Genesis).
Kaput columnist Claus Richter had the pleasure to speak with Genesis on the phone.  

Hello Genesis!
Hi, Claus! Sounds like you are in an echo-chamber..
No, hihi, I´m in the backspace of a gallery! There is a classic old-school telephone here and thats the only way I can do the interview via phone!
Ahhh, I see! Strange sound, kind of interesting..
Yes, its a cathedral of art!
Hihi, one of those, he?
Ahem, it´s actually quite small!
Is it?
Yes yes, but it has a very high ceiling.. How are you doing?
Oh im OK, thank you!
How was your day?
My day so far was somewhat lazy.. What did we do today? We cuddled my dog, Musty Dagger!
Awwww!!
She´s a beautiful pekinese!
How sweet!
We set the alarm for 9 a.m., but we spent two hours cuddeling the dog!
That´s so good!
We then made her some food! First of all, we cooked her some steak in butter, but she didm´t like that so then we cooked her some sausages, which she´s just eaten.. Hmm, what else did we do? We went to the bank, to see if we had any money in there…Not much!
A bit is still there, I hope!
Yeah, we then came back and read a book, till you called!
Thats nice! A friend of mine has two great dogs, french bulldogs, and she always cooks for them. They are used to have their special meals, they only eat their special meat. One is very old, so she has to feed it by hand, which is so sweet. Does your dog also snore, when it sleeps?
Yes.
That´s the sweetest thing!
And she has an underbite, she has her teeth underneath sticking out. She´s wonderful! She keeps me alive!
If my friend has a hard time, the dogs are always there. I always wanted a dog, it makes me feel so happy to be around dogs!
They are the best! The most reliable. She really is my therapist, my love, everything! Especially since Lady Jaye is not physically here.. I think she kept me alive through the grieving!
Oh I hope so! Dogs are really emotional, they really understand you.
They really do.
It doesn´t need any language. Its all looking, touching and being there!
Haha, is this our interview?! How wonderful dogs are?
Yes! Let´s have a dog-interview!
Yeah!

I wanted to tell you a story! When I was really young, I mean now I´m 45 years old, but when I was 17 I read an article in a german magazine, it was about thee Temple of Psychic Youth. I was totally excited, growing up in a small town, it was very different and amazing, so I wanted to become a member! I wrote to the Temple and I even did three SIGILS.
Wow! You?
Yes, hihi, I was so young, and I was too shy to send them!
Ooohh what a shame! You would have gotten little gifts and letters! We wrote back to everybody!
Yes, I got one letter, but then I was shying away. And I recently found them on the attic of my fathers house! So maybe I´ll send them later!
Hahaha, yes, but it doesn´t exist anymore..
Sigh, I know..
There´s nowhere to send it now..
I know, I thought it would be funny though…
It would, it would! If someone would receive it now at the old address!
I´ll keep them. Maybe as a reminder…
The house in Hackney is still there! It has become something of a shrine to fans and people who
appreciate our work. We put a big psychic cross on the front of the door, it´s a black door, it´s done
almost like on a medieval castle..
Wow!
People apparently turn up regularly and take photographs outside. They even sometimes knock and say: „Is this really where thee Temple of Psychic Youth and Throbbing Gristle and Psychic TV began?“ – “Yes it is!“
And is someone still there, answering all their questions?
There is somebody who lives there and apparently they are very polite!
How sweet!
„Yes it´s where they were.. Oh no, we don´t mind you taking a picture of the front door..“
The sweetness of it! I love it!
It´s amazing, right? After all this time.
I hope it will go on and on and on, and maybe in 100 years people will like rush there in large crowds.
Well, we were hoping that one day the will put one of those blue plaques on the outside: „Genesis P Orridge lived here. TG, PTT and Industrial Music began here.“
Oh yes, they should have the official tourist tours coming there, it´s the first place to go!
One day! Now it has become an art-area, the east of London.
Ewww..
It´s now full of art and galleries..
Oh that could be dangerous. Ahem, I mean, actually I´m sitting in a gallery at the moment, but I know, what galleries can do…
Ahem, yeah.. So anyway, where were we?

We talked about the early Temple of Psychic Youth, and I wanted to thank you for opening my mind! Living in this small town at the time, it really had a transgressive power for me. I mean, of course I was the bullied strange child at school..
Aaahh, you were too!
Yes, I guess most of the people one likes are somehow..We all meet up later!
It´s an ongoing species!
I also have the impression, it never ends.
Yeah, thank goodness! We´ve just been making a sculpture for the next art exhibition we have which opened on march 11th at the Rubin-Museum in New York and is still up till August 11th. One of the pieces is based on something that Brion Gysin said to me in Paris before he died. He said: „Wisdom can only be passed on by the touching of hands.“ We´ll have a plaque with that quote from him and then beneath that, sticking out of the wall is a cast in bronze of my arm, shaking hands. It has all my tattoos engraved into it and we wand people to come and actually touch my hand. So it hopefully gets all polished and shiny, like an old buddha statue..
So it´s actually allowed to touch?
Oh yes, thats the whole point!
Art is so often untouchable, „Please don´t touch!“
Yes, but there everyone is invited to shake my hand!
If I´ll be there, I´ll do it!
Tell everybody to go and shake my hand!
Thousands and thousands of touches. People will take pictures to remember it.
That´ll be fine. It would be good to set up a camera, so that every time someone shook my hand, it would be photographed..
Or maybe you just feel it at home. Cold be?
Yes, but I´ll be there also for 2 days a week, and there will be a phone where people can call me and ask questions!
How nice! So you´re sort of completely opening up to anyone who comes and calls.
Yes!

Genesis Breyer P Orridge (Photo by Drew Weidemann)

Fantastic.. Oh, wait, I actually prepared some questions, maybe, I´ll start asking you some now!
(laughs) OK, I´m ready now!
There´s one that fits our recent conversation quite well: As we talk about openness, I have that fixed idea that in the past 100 years there were two decades that I find very open, experimental and transgressive. For me it´s the time from 1900 until the big wars and then again the late 60s until the early 80s. Thinking of things like the decadent movement or all the counterculture of the 70s I have the impression that our contemporary life tends to become more conservative again. Even younger people tend to act more conservative. What do you think about that? Do you think, we live in conservative times?
Yes, definitely. One of the things that might be really different, this is actually one of my observations, is that in the 60s we were all supporting each other, sharing resources and ideas. Nobody was competing. It was basically all us freaks doing everything we could to make the world a better place.We fought for freedom for people who were gay, for women, for people who were black , for anyone who was suppressed. Whether we were that, or not! For example, i did performances with the Gay Lib Street Theatre, and I wasn´t gay, it didn´t matter. We squatted as well, I was also involved in quite a few of the very early squats in London and actually ended up living in a squat in Hackney for 20 years! We were really actually trying to help each other! Somebody was trying to put on an event and needed something and we would say: Yes we have that, take it and give it back later. And that would happen all the way through. And that happened again during punk and the beginning of Industrial. We had Throbbing Gristle and when other people heard our music, we got letters from Cabaret Voltaire, Clock DVA, Monte Cazazza and all these other people and we were all saying „Thank goodness there are people that are thinking like we are!“ We weren´t trying to sound like each other, it wasn´t a formula, it was an attitude! it was all about: „The world is fucked up and us trying to make it a better place“..
I think you can always directly feel, that things have a different energy if people work on something together instead of against each other.. A lot of people work quite egocentric these days, artist strongly focus on their career. Even very young artists, coming directly out of art school want to become famous very quickly so no one really works together anymore..Thats quite sad.
You´re actually answering for me now!
(both laugh)
Hihi, sorry, I´m such a chatty person!
I was gonna say, that in the 60s and 70s it was lovingly that we were trying to work together, it was quite positive, very optimistic, probably somewhat naive but very utopian. Than in the late 70s and early 80s we were still trying to make the world a better place, but were were angry and frustrated and a bit enraged by the inequalities an hypocrisies, bigotry and all the entrenched people in control economically and politically. So we were fed up with doing it nicely, we wanted to smash it, so there was room for it to be made better! And then there was a gap. And now, as you just said so rightly, its all about careers, competing and stomping over each other to get some kind of attention. I mean, „Branding“! People, artist talk about „branding“ themselves, when they are still at art school! As Brion Gysin said to me once, again he was so brilliant, he said: Don´t try and write a book until you´re at least 50 cause you have not lived until then!
Thats good! I will wait five more years and then start mine! When I went to an opening some days ago, everyone was so keen on paving a career. I started doing art around 15 years ago and it still had more of a hippie-feeling to it. But maybe my complaining is a generation-thing. I guess, there are a lot of young people around that still act brilliantly but are somehow under the radar.
There are a few. There are tiny pockets somehow. But they don´t get too much attention, they are mostly ignored by many galleries. There has been a slight shift in the last years in New York. It ´s funny that you mentioned the Temple of Psychic Youth. Because when we started in 1981 people thought we were really regressive hillbillies doing magic and occult things, it seemed to have no place in a contemporary world. And we were saying: No, it is actually a very important part of humanity! It goes right back to our beginnings, where we lived in caves and we didn´t know whether the sun would ever come up again. So we did prayers and rituals to try and beg it to come back each day. And we did things to get children to have food, to bring back the summer and so on. And THAT is the root of humanity, of art and culture! it´s about making things happen. And in the last years in New York there have been some exhibitions on the occult in art, also in modern contemporary art. There were at least three of these shows, and younger artists choose to include this aspects into their work. Possibly a bit too much on the side of fashionable statements, but its still opening up the idea, that art isn´t just what we put on walls, to be paying for it so to see it increase in value, bringing everything including the artist to a massive narcissistic level. Art is actually originally meant to make things happen, to change the world!
Its somehow also about coming together, to see someone´s view on the world and to learn empathy through this. I hope, things somehow always progress in a way. I´m such an optimist and actually with you in the world, it´s quite a good place.
Awww, you are being too kind!
It´s true.
You know that I turn 66 next week?
66 seems to be a good age. I´m so looking forward to becoming older. I mean, I loved my childhood, but when I became a bit older, the struggle with reality started. I find reality a bit complicated to deal with!
(laughs) Oh yes! Actually when you finally have to pay bills, it all starts. I never got over the shock that I had to pay to be alive.
Yes, then the shit starts.
It´s terrible! Oh, one thing that we should mention is, that we have very quietly been resurrecting a contemporary aspect of the Temple of Psychic Youth. It´s called „The one true TOPY Tribe“ Very slowly we have been re-formulating some of those ideas. Because we do feel that its really essential to remind especially young people that they do have to collaborate and share resources as the world gets more and more unstable. It´s going to become more and more essential to survival to share what you have and to support and protect each other. Art should be reflecting that need. And talking about this now, that communities have to restart. Communities of like-minded people. People who see the future is dark and who want to try to illuminate it with new ideas. Speaking of the „One true TOPY Tribe“ you´ll notice these people because of the patches they wear. it´s a big round patch that says „one true TOPY tribe“ and has a psychic cross. Keep looking out for them!
I´ll keep my eyes open!
It´s funny, how that works. People said to me, anytime they´ve been traveling in a foreign country and somebody will see a psychic cross on a patch somewhere, they go: „Oh! Psychic TV!“ and just from talking to them, they are invited to stay at their house. Or invited to interesting places. So this is a form of recognition of like-minded people. The ones you talked about: All of us freaks. The ones that don´t fit in the way the world wants us to be. I guess these are the people that change the world. Always. Artist, thinkers and spiritual minded people change the world.

It´s always good to make things visible..When I think about Pandrogeny, the life you live as a pandrogyne being, this ist somehow making love visible for me. It becomes visible so clearly by what you DO. By acting out love visibly.
Thank you so much! That´s been happening too from people who have seen the film with me and Lady Jaye. There´s also a new documentary, it´s called „Bight of the Twin.“ and it´s a film by Hazel Hill McCarthy III. We went to Africa to film voodoo in West-Africa. To find the roots of art and religion if you like. Whats the real creation-story? Whats´s the oldest possible belief-system? Voodoo is the most continuous story, going back the furthest! We we got there, we discovered its nothing like in the films and the bad press. It´s about healing and about sharing! It´s nothing else but that.
Did you meet people who practice voodoo and did you talk to them?
The first day we got there, we got to this small town called Ouidah in Benin in West Africa. There were no real streets, just dirt streets, and we were in the little tiny square in the middle of this town and we were drinking beer because you can´t drink the water. And as we were sitting and talking, it was me that looked across and the shadows at the other side of the square and we felt we saw a tall person in a blue robe that seemed to be floating in the shadows. So we said out loud without thinking about it: „Oh, we see a high priest!“ and everyone looked around an said „There´s no-one there, Gen!“
Oh!
And we were sure! We saw somebody! Really tall and in blue robes! And everyone was like „There´s nothing. You´re tired, you´re jetlagged.“ So the next day we met a young man who was going to be our guide and translator. He was about 22 years old. At the end of the day he said: „I´d like you to meet my family and come to our place and have dinner with us.“ and of course we agreed! So he took us back to the town square and that wall on which I had seen someone the day before had a door and it was actually the place where his family lived! We went into the main room and there was this man who was nearly 7 foot tall in blue robes…
No!
…who is the high priest of the voodoo! And actually it´s his father!
This is magic!
I know! And his father said to him in the local dialect: „Tell this person that he had a twin, but she died. And she was wearing the gold earrings, that this person is wearing now.“ And we were like: „…Yes!“ So it works with pandrogyne twins as well! So I said „Yes“ and he knew straight away. In the moment he saw me, he saw Jaye! How do they do that?! I mean, we were just totally amazed. And he said: „You need to have a ritual and you need a Jumeaux!“ and we said „Whats a Jumeaux?“ And it´s actually a little doll, made out of this holy wood and you do a sacrifice of chickens and chanting and pray and offerings to the deities and all of those amazing rituals and then the doll is ritually animated, it is alive. It represents and is Jaye! Its her soul and her spirit now transmits an receives to me through this doll. So we have to take it everywhere, which we do. We feed it, we talk to it, we have four matching outfits, just like we did when she was physically alive.
How great!
The whole film ended up becoming a movie about twins. So there is a second documentary about Lady Jaye and Genesis after Lady Jaye dropped her body. She is still here, and there is more than just physical live. Isn´t that wonderful?
I find that beautiful. Sometimes I have the feeling of going crazy just about being here in this world. Sometimes you strangely realize. You wake up and think“ Ooops, i am here in this world!“ but there was a time before that and there will be a time after that. And it becomes harder for me to see this as a binary system. Something seems to be wrong with binary thinking, maybe all of this is embedded in another non-binary system that contains us.
And it´s a continuing one. For me it seems to be clearer now, that Jaye and I were together before. We remembered things about each other, that we couldn´t have known. Since Lady Jaye dropped her body, we had things happen that suggest she is still able to contact me. I mean there are some stories… Do you wanna hear one?
Oh yes of course!!!
It was actually two days after the funeral, we were in our apartment in Brooklyn. My two daughters were there, Caresse and Genesse, Edley O´Dowd the drummer from Psychic TV, Alice our Bass Player and a a couple of other people, we were like 5 or 6 people. And the children were saying: „We want you to come back to California with us! We don´t want you to be here on your own without Jaye!“ and we were thinking „Hmmm, don´t know.. Do we wanna go there or do we want to stay here, because what if Jaye´s spirit is still here? What would happen if we leave and she would be attracted to this space?“. So we were trying to think what to do and suddenly came this thought:“ Well, if we do go, we need a photo of Jaye and me together“ on her side of the wall in the bedroom was what she called „The kissing wall“. It had about 20 photos of us, kissing all over the world.
Awww!
It was the last thing she saw, when she fell asleep and the first thing she saw, when she woke up. So we went and looked a the kissing wall and one of the pictures was both of us in Kathmandu in Nepal, which was our favorite place in the world. And we were both wearing red robes, sitting on one chair, embracing and kissing, so it was like a big blob of red with two heads kissing and we thought: „Thats the Pandrogyne! One body with two beings!“ So we took it off the wall and brought it to the other room and placed it on a cupboard on the side of the room, about 6 feet from where we were sitting. So we sat down and the children they all looked at me and were saying „So are you going to come to California?“ And as we said „I don´t know whether Jaye would want me too“ the picture rose about three inches, flew across the room until it was in front of me, turned the right way up and then slowly lowered right between my feet. Everyone was speechless and looked at each other, it was crazy. So but when both of us were physically here, we also thought about what you just have been saying: If there is more, if you can maintain a sense of consciousness and identity without a body after death or before life, how would we communicate to the other one of us? Because we both want to meet each other again in whatever is next. And still be one being. Maybe we could even blend both consciousnesses and become one truly! So we thought: Wow do we know, if it´s really a message? So we came up with three things. One of them was:Something physical has to happen. It can´t be :“I thought I saw you in a crowd, I thought I heard your voice, I dreamt something, whatever…It has to be something physical..And then it has to have witnesses, because otherwise you could have imagined it, hallucinated it or made it up..And it should have special meaning to us. And that happened! A physical object floating through the air, 6 or 7 people watching and it had a special meaning. And that was in three days!! Three fucking day!
Amazing, so you were really sure that she was there?
Yes, and it happened some more in the time after that!
And the Twin-Doll? It is all the time at your side?
Yeah, I take it wherever we go, it is in the bedroom, watching me sleep..We actually just gave it some food. She has fresh water every day. We talk to her and we kiss her and we ask her to help me out when things are difficult.. It was funny, the high priest Dah said to me: Oh and actually you have really problems with money, you´re not good in keeping money! He said, the twin doll of Lady Jaye will help me with money, too, and it´s true!
Haha! Yes?
Yes! Every time we´ve been down to zero, within twenty-four hours something turned up, of thatwe never knew it was going to come!
That´s brilliant, I like that she´s helping you!
Yeahh! She really is! She always said: „You´re useless with money, Gen!“
(both laughing)

Ahem, I know that quite well. But I´m less and less puzzled by it, I think you get somehow used to it! Everything is so often based on fear in our mind. I have so many fears and people around me are no better. Fear is such a strong emotion. Do you have fears? Are you still afraid of death for example?
No, not really! I don´t look forward to the actual process really. If it ends up being something like cancer it will be a pretty miserable experience. But in the end everything that happens to us is kind of fascinating. Having a body is amazing. And being here is such an amazing privilege. To experience all this other beings around and all the environments that we can experience! So whatever happens to me or you is meant to happen, we´ll know that we´re going to see Jaye and who knows what we´ll be seeing next? maybe we´ll come back here 80 years ago and just take another loop until we learn enough..So it´s a mystery, and it´s a wonderful mystery! Of everyone we´ve met, and we have met a lot of fascinating people, Jaye is the most foolish fearless person! She had no fear of anything!
I envy that!
Me too! She was just a truly remarkable being and we feel blessed that we have known her and what is even more beautiful, to have been loved by her!
Yes and you are somehow one person still, which has a strong power! I really envy fearlessness. I mean, sometimes it´s really helpful to have fears, like if a car rushes round the corner and you fear getting run over, than it´s a helpful emotion for sure. But all those vague fears that day to day rush through our minds, all these thoughts of „What happens, if this happens“ and so on, they block you so often.
Yes, I mean, we got raided by Scotland Yard, we lost two houses overnight! We were in Kathmandu using our savings to run a soup kitchen for refugees and beggars. Up to 300 people came twice a day and we fed them all with rice and dhal and clean water, so that they could stay alive. And all of the sudden we got a Fax saying: „Your house has been raided by Scotland Yard!“ and we discovered that from that day on we had nothing except the things we had in our hotel room! And we couldn´t go home. So we went to our tibetan friend and said: „Guess what? I´m a refugee, too!“ and he laughed and said: „Go to America!“ and I said“ Ohhh, I don´t like America, I don´t wanna go to America“. So we went and saw the Aghori Baba, the hindu holy man and he said „Go to America!“
(both laughing)
And I said: „Ooh, noooo way!“ but in the end, we did, we went to America and we had amazing experiences here! And if we wouldn´t have been going, we would´t have met Lady Jaye! And all these other things wouldn´t have happened and Pandrogyne would´t have occurred and on and on. So: If you loose everything, it turns out to be the most beautiful experience you could have ever asked for!
I guess it´s a cathartic moment, a strange moment of freedom. You still maybe don´t want that over and over again, but I can imagine, that you loose some fears, if you see, that everything starts new and different again. It´s like fate forces you to take a turn..
Yes, just think of Jaye dropping her body, now we know so much more about the ability of consciousness to exist outside the body. So we now know, that there is something after death. Although one says that no-one knows whether there is or not, WE know it now. But you are right, fear is the trick, that is used all through human history to control people. One uses fear of health, fear of punishment, fear of eternal damnation to get people to behave and be controlled. Politicians use fear of other people, fear of another religion, fear of people who are gay, fear of people who are black, fear of anything but some other demographic kind of people you could somehow be afraid of so that you ask them to „protect“ you, which of course means to oppress you and control you. And that´s how societies work for thousands of years and it´s time for a fucking change!
It´s time to have no fear of „the other“.
Exactly!
But it´s still difficult, I´m trying as good as possible, but whats problematic is when I get confronted with aggressive conformity.
Oh yes, because it relies on conformity to come and put you into being conform. Control is addicted to control. So it requires endless control. This is why Burroughs was so radical in identifying control in itself as the enemy.

So maybe you have a clue for me, what do you do when you meet aggressively conformist people? I think that especially these people are the people that should open up a bit. So it seems to be important to keep contact and talk to such a person.
Oh well, look how many people have been aggressive towards me, and we´re still here! And still say what we truly believe. You have to be brave. As Lady Jaye said, just before she dropped her body: „This year´s slogan is: Fuck em all!“ So we got patches made, embroidered patches that say „Fuck em all!“
(laughter)
So all of Psychic TV were wearing them and we gave them away to hundreds of people, you just have to let go! There´s always some amazing adventure there, hidden, that you only can experience if you just let go fear. It´s not always the way you expect, you loose people..I mean we would have not chosen to have Lady Jaye drop her body , but obviously thats a) a lesson to learn and b) we have to continue focussed on what has to be said and done until it´s time for me to go. She didn´t like having a body, she didn´t like having to put up with the endless idiocy of the human species itself. I mean, just the way we suffer because of ourselves, as a species. It hurt her deeply every time. Every time she woke up she was appalled at the stupidity of our species towards itself. So few people control so many. And why don´t people wake up and realize that if we ignore them, they´ll have to go away because the only have power because we give it to them!
So you would say that ignoring the power is a good way to deal with it?
Yeah, to not let it control the way you act, to not let it control your way of life.
I guess thats not so easy for everyone..
I know that my version of that is extreme compared to most people. My decision early on was what Lady Jaye used to describe as: „See a Cliff-Jump Off!“. When I was 17 I thought „What´s the worst that can happen if we devote ourselves totally to being a bohemian-beatnik-poet-writer-artistcreater- philosopher..? — Hmmm. We could die of starvation. Or we could go to prison or…. Well, fuck it! So what?“
Hihi.
I mean that could happen anyway..
Right! Thats helpful to keep in mind! I sometimes pity people who are deeply obsessed with power. I have this neurotic obsession to try to help them. Do you think there is a way to reach these people?
Compassion is very good, but some of them just aren´t capable of understanding you. But I mean compassion is still a good thing to feel as a general feeling. If we had to be a philosophy it would be buddhism because of compassion, forgiveness and peace. But sometimes it´s not practical. You have to swim in the world that you´re in. You have to try. But there´s always a way to still express that. Even if you feel the need to be in a 9to5 job and lead a potentially (on the surface) normal life it still gives you endless ways to be kind, forgiving, generous and loyal. The way you behave is what really changes the world?
What I always found very helpful is being a bit silly, a bit goofy. If you act a bit ridiculous, people have to laugh, which easily breaks down barriers.
Humor ist very important! People miss a lot of the humor in our work, which is a shame!
Hihi, I can see it quite clearly I guess!
I can tell you can see about everything actually. You know everything already.
Haha, no, not at all. I maybe somehow feel certain things.
Sounds right to me, Mister!
(both laughing)

But wait, I have a sort of funny question still waiting to be asked!
Please!
Do you have a favorite perfume, a smell that you adore?
Yes, actually! Poison!
Poison!!!
Yeah, because my mother always wore it! When she passed away with 92 we felt compelled to buy „Poison“ in a duty free shop at the airport an we´ve been wearing it ever since!

And now comes already my last last question, that I´ve been eager to ask you: Talking of transgression and changes, I was always positively fascinated by Michael Jackson, the changes he went through. What do you think about him?!
He was very modern! Myself and Lady Jaye had no qualms about cosmetic surgery, genetic engineering, anything like that. And he was a very early pioneer of the inherent possibilities of contemporary times through technology and medicine to be able to look like however you wish. What´s kind of sad with Michael is that he had a sort of limited view of what he wanted to become. It seems sad, that he wanted to be white, to be Diana Ross. But his choice to try and change himself physically, to become mentally what he wished to become, thats great! We would argue, that there is so much more! We´re looking forward to when you can say „I want to have fur!“ or „I want to grow feathers all over me!“
Yes!
„I want four breasts!“
Yes!
„Ten penises!“
Yes!
„Horns!“
Yes!
„And I want to have gills, so I can live underwater!“
Yeeees!!!
That´s what we are looking forward to!

Great! Thank you very much for the joyous talk!
It was a pleasure!