Orchestrating the Beautiful Chaos of Big Ears

Knoxville (Photo: Thomas Venker)

Knoxville, on a Saturday afternoon deep into the Big Ears festival weekend. The air hums not just with the Tennessee spring but with the palpable energy of overlapping soundscapes and migrating audiences moving between venues scattered across the walkable downtown. Inside the local Hyatt Hotel, away from the immediate throng.

I sit down with Bryan Crow, the Festival Director of Big Ears. He’s number two to the festival’s founder and guiding spirit, Ashley Capps, the Executive and Artistic Director who will during our conversation say hello with his wife, Birgit.

Crow looks surprisingly untired – as said it’s peak festival. Our conversation starts, perhaps inevitably, with the role of the artist’s voice, particularly in charged political times as ours. I mention noticing that artists don’t often speak extensively from the stage, but when they do, like Anohni the night before, they do especially with eloquence, it carries significant weight.

Bryan, most artists I saw so far at this years Big Ears Festival are shy to talk politics, which I totally understand because the topics are so big, but then again…

Bryan Crow

Bryan Crow: Totally. It’s definitely poignant right now. We’re never booking anyone for political reasons, or color of their skin, or anything else. It’s just the quality of their art. And if it happens to be political, then we give them the space to express that.

You’re also not excluding people, you’re saying.
Absolutely not. No one’s included or excluded based on characteristics that they can’t control or opinions they express. It’s all based on art and what they’re doing creatively. If that happens to be political, then…

Last year we had this Boycott Germany thing, where a lot of artists boycotted festivals operating and getting state money. My position is very clear: As long as somebody’s not going against the law, it’s free speech.

Exactly.

And that’s also where culture comes in, that we are discussing things together. That’s the beauty about culture. You meet people. You maybe have different opinions, but you sit together.

But we always all have something in common, share commonalities, life experiences, and things like that. Hopefully people can always find common ground, even if they don’t necessarily agree.

But when you said explicitly that you don’t look at color, gender, and all that, does that mean you have very old-school curatorial board meetings where you just go for music, and then at the end, you maybe realize, ‘Okay, we also need to find two more women,’ or something? Or …

Again, not necessarily. We’re not really looking at things like that when we program. It really is strictly based on art and what people are talking about. Also: I think we program this in a somewhat selfish way because it’s things that we’re listening to and things that we’re into at the time.

How should I imagine the board of people who make the booking decisions? How many people are involved in that?

There are a lot of folks on the periphery, people we talk to, get ideas from. But in terms of the curation of the lineup, it’s mostly the artistic and executive director, Ashley Capps, along with myself and our booking admin, Morgan Fleming.

Right. And do you have lots of discussions, like things where you would say, ‘We start it there and we end there,’ or is it mostly that over the years, because you’ve worked with them for a very long time, you have a clear understanding of each other?

Totally. I’ve worked for the festival every year since 2014. And I attended in 2009 and ’10. So, in a way, I’ve been to every single one and been involved more and more as the years have progressed until last year I was made the festival director over all of it. I am number two to Ashley, the executive and artistic director.

We have a lot of ideas and conversations when we start planning the programming for the festival, and it all comes together very organically. We book a headliner or this artist and say, ‘Oh, well, what could complement this? What do we like that’s in this vein? What would our fans like that are in this vein?’ And it just comes together organically over a period of months or a year, however long it takes us to program. Threads and themes start to naturally emerge, and we follow those and see where it takes us.

Anohni at Big Ears (Photo: Thomas Venker)

Do you feel that you are also looking at what’s happening out there, the zeitgeist in a way? Because many artists here seem to have been ongoing for a long time; there’s huge stability. But you also find artists like Jules Riley or Wendy Eisenberg on the lineup, who just popped up recently, but obviously have the potential to still be here in 10 or 15 years. So, I’m interested in this process of balancing stability and tradition with new voices.

Well, that’s a tough line to walk. It’s difficult to explain when you’re so close to it. It feels, to me and I think to Ashley, the artistic director, like a very natural, organic thing that, especially for Ashley, is innate in him because he has such an eclectic taste, deep knowledge and appreciation for music, culture, and things that are happening. We’re just junkies. (laughs) We’re constantly reading everything about music, absorbing it all, and seeing where it all takes us.

Another significant thing is that you see bands play with musicians you normally don’t see them with. The Sun Ra Orchestra performing with Yo La Tengo is one bigger example. But also, Shazad Ismaily is everywhere, jumping on stage. (laughs) Is this also coming from you guys? Do you think, ‘Okay, how about a Yo La Tengo concert with three more musicians I haven’t seen them with in that constellation?’ Or is this also something you have an eye on?

Well, the Yo La Tengo and Sun Ra thing specifically, we saw that they played together during one of Yo La Tengo’s Hanukkah runs. And we were like, ‘That is cool. We want to see that.’ It was just a conversation with them. And then it’s like, ‘Well, they’re both here, they might as well do their own show as well.’

A lot of that happens naturally and organically outside of us. The bands that come see their other friends on the lineup, they know who’s playing with who, and they’re like, ‘Oh, hey, come play with us here, or come play with us there.’ 
Or, for instance, Jenny Scheinman’s All Species Parade has Bill Frisell, Julian Lage, Nels Cline, all playing guitar in the project this evening. I forget exactly the order of how it happened, but it’s like, ‘We’re going to have all these guys here, let’s book some other projects.’ And so, we had the Nels Cline Singers and his Consentrik Quartet playing tomorrow. Julian’s also playing with the Joe Lovano Paramount Quartet. Bill Frisell did his project last night, and then also played with Charles Lloyd in that beautiful Thursday night tribute to the late Zakir Hussain.

So, a lot of that happens and emerges naturally. Or, I think Josh Johnson is playing in four or five different ensembles or solo this year. And so, that’s also part of the process, being like, ‘Oh, okay, well, this person’s here maybe as a side person or as a leader, but they’re also in this group and they’re awesome, so let’s see if we can make this work.’ I’m sure there are other places where that happens, but I’m not aware where there’s such a cross-pollination and cross-section of all these people playing with each other. We don’t necessarily actively encourage it, but we definitely don’t discourage it either. That’s part of the magic.

Also, these moments are often the ones that stay with visitors, who think, ‘Oh, I only saw that once in my life, those people together, and it was in this room.’ Which are the stories you want to hear from a festival, right?

Absolutely. And I think that’s part of what makes this event so special: all of that cross-pollination and people sitting in with each other and saying, ‘Oh, my friend’s here, I want to do this.’

Like, when we booked Adam Rudolph, for instance, he found out that his friend Tyshawn Sorey was going to be on the lineup, and was like, ‘Can we please do a duo together?’ We’re not going to say no to that. (laughs) Of course. Please. So, a lot of times, those ideas can come from the artists. They say, ‘Oh, my friend’s here, we can do this project,’ and that type of thing.

Or another instance: we unfortunately had Asha Puthli cancel due to some unforeseen circumstances with her health. Jamaladeen Tacuma was the bandleader for that project, and when that canceled, he emailed us almost immediately and was like, ‘Hey, I can put together this thing with Nels Cline and Immanuel Wilkins and we can fill that spot.’ And we were like, ‘That sounds awesome. Let’s do it.’ So, it was unfortunate circumstances, but to be able to have all these people already here and be able to pull that kind of talent at the last minute is just really special and cool.

Do the artists also have a dialogue with you about the specific venues? Because obviously, there are theaters, warm rooms, and some kinds of, I’d say, more cold arrangement rooms, or something? Do you open the dialogue for that? Or are you afraid of too much? Because some of the artists come here for so long, they know specifically, ‘I want to play there.’

There are artists who have been here before. They often say, ‘Oh, I want to play the Bijou,’ or, ‘Please put me in the Mill & Mine,’ or that type of thing. But some of our venues do have limitations on what type of music we can put in there. And so that’s part of our thought process in booking also. There’s only a certain type of artist that we can put in St. John’s Cathedral that makes sense programmatically. This is probably a bad example, but Les Claypool last night – we can’t put him in a church. And so we have to be strategic and very thoughtful about programming in that regard and ask, ‘Well, what’s going to make sense in this set of venues that we have?’

Knoxville (Photo: Thomas Venker)

Bryan, are you living over the whole year here in Knoxville?

I am temporarily based in Memphis, Tennessee, while my wife is in law school there. I moved to Knoxville in 2005 to attend the University of Tennessee, and before I graduated, I had no idea what I was going to do. I found out that there was a company here in town, AC Entertainment – which is Ashley Capps, the executive director, it was his concert and production company. We did over a thousand one-off concerts a year. We also produced Bonnaroo, the major rock festival in Manchester, Tennessee, just south of Nashville, and had a whole portfolio of five or six other festivals here in the southeast. But I found out that I could hang up concert posters and get free concert tickets. (laughs) And I thought I’d made it. One thing led to another, and eventually I became Ashley’s assistant.

My role grew over time, and right before the pandemic, that company was sold to Live Nation. We were going to be absorbed into that company and that ecosystem eventually. COVID sped that up.

But Ashley had carved out Big Ears from that sale. We had made it a non-profit, and then coming out of COVID, he invited me to come along with him just to do Big Ears. I lived here in Knoxville for, I think, 18 years before we moved to Memphis a year and a half ago. As soon as law school’s over, I’ll be back. So I’ve been working remotely for the last year and a half or two years, coming back to town about a week out of every month to be in the office, be here, meet with our local partners, and do things like that.

So you have expertise for my next question: How should I imagine Knoxville during the rest of the year? Would you say it’s not so different culturally than this week, or is this week really special? Are these bands coming in, not in this amount, but could I see these kinds of shows here during the year, or is it—

Not necessarily. Some of the more, for lack of a better term, popular type acts—your Les Claypools, your Taj Mahals, things like that—they will be the people that tour regularly. They come through and play at the Mill & Mine, the Tennessee Theatre, the Bijou Theater, the Knoxville Civic Auditorium. Knoxville gets great shows; I think it punches above its weight for its size. And that was cultivated, I think, by Ashley and his company AC Entertainment, going out of their way to bring those shows to town. Over the years, the artists say, ‘Oh man, Knoxville’s great. Great town, great audience,’ that type of thing. So that was cultivated over a long period, and I think a lot of towns the size of Knoxville aren’t lucky to have that year-long programming.

But this weekend is definitely unique in bringing in—you’re not going to see The Philip Glass Ensemble performing at the Tennessee Theatre. You’re not going to see Anohni come through or anything like that.

And do you know for sure how many local people buy tickets here? What is the relation between locals, area, state, and international attendees?

I don’t know the exact number, but percentage-wise, our audience is about 30% local and 70% from out of town, outside the region. Not from Tennessee. I think last year we had something like 18 countries represented here at Big Ears. We had all 50 states. So people are coming from all over to spend four or five days with us here in Knoxville.

But 30% is a great number. That’s huge local involvement… which I really appreciate. Because the international aspect is great, and of course, it adds charm, showing the festival has made it in that sense. But I always found it fascinating when many people maybe come step-by-step closer to a lineup like this, didn’t know so much in the beginning, and learn about that kind of music.

I think there is a very healthy representation of local people. But most people are coming from out of town because where else are you going to see all of these people in one place? In New York, LA, or Chicago, you might be able to catch half of these acts over the course of a year or something with one-off concerts. But to have all these acts in one place over the course of four or five days—where else is that happening?

Knoxville (Photo: Thomas Venker)

You touched on cultural exchange in the beginning. We are seeing massive changes in visa politics and related issues. How are you looking at this? Are you concerned that it will have consequences for your festival in the long run? Are you talking with artists? Have you already had cases like that?
Absolutely. We have a dialogue with other performing arts presenters in the similar space and regarding the things we present. It absolutely is a concern. Again, we try to book people for their art, and if they happen to be international, that’s one thing. But with everything that’s going on right now, especially the international artist visa situation, it is definitely a concern.

And the prices have risen in the last couple of months.

Well, the prices, and then what’s going on politically currently and related issues—it could be a problem for a lot of performing arts presenters that present international artists. I think we were very fortunate this year that none of our cancellations or issues were directly involved with visa issues. But that’s definitely something that we’re trying to keep our eye on for the future.

I saw that FKA Twigs had to cancel all her North American dates this week because the visa didn’t arrive in time. I think she has a pretty professional team that tried to get it early. It’s beyond the failure of the team.

Absolutely. And even when you pay extra to expedite your visa process, it could still be months of waiting. It’s difficult for any artist to be planning two or three years in advance to accommodate for that. It’s always kind of been an issue, but I think it’s being exacerbated recently, especially in the last few months. And I think we’re going to start seeing some ripple effects of that, especially over the coming years.

Beyond visas, the complex and often burdensome US tax system for foreign artists adds another layer of difficulty.

Right. And all the expenses associated with just coming to the States. Then, if you don’t have enough money to work with a tax professional, the United States requires us, the person paying the artist, to withhold a percentage of their fee to ensure that the artist is paying their taxes on any income in the United States. So unless you’re working with a tax professional, you’ve got to make your budget based on, ‘Okay, I’m only getting 66% of my money, and I have to wait until I file my taxes with the IRS at the end of the year to get the rest of that back.’ And then, as a foreign person having to navigate the American tax system…

Which leads me to inflation and economics… I was in New York the weekend before and observed the bars a little bit… I saw fewer people consuming at bars… but if people do not drink then the money for bookings will be massively smaller.

Absolutely. Especially in the last few years coming out of COVID, we’ve seen a lot of inflation in the event production sphere. I forget the percentages and statistics exactly, but the costs of production and producing an event have far outpaced even the super-high rate of inflation that we’ve been seeing in the last few years. And so, that’s why you’re seeing concert tickets being driven up. What pre-COVID might have been $50 or $75 is now $300 or something like that.

And it’s not just that. I think it’s also the drop in physical album sales, where an artist historically saw a lot of their income. Now, with streaming and things like that, they’re not getting that… So, they’ve got to make their money somehow, and it’s through live shows, merchandise… But on the production side too, we’re seeing huge increases in price: fuel costs, vehicle rentals, food that we provide to the artists… it’s just across the board, it’s becoming more difficult and more expensive to produce these events, and we’re very sensitive to that.

We’ve had to increase the prices of our tickets some, but the base price of our festival ticket has remained essentially unchanged for the last two or three years. So we’ve had to get creative to find other avenues and revenue streams to keep up with those rising costs as we have expanded and grown the event.

In relation to what people get, the ticket price is not expensive. Because if you look at the Philip Glass Ensemble, if you go to two of their shows in New York, how much would the tickets be…?
Right. I know. Totally. If you look at it practically and reasonably, it’s very affordable. But then, especially if you’re coming from out of town, you add on the cost of the flight. It adds up… I think one night of hotel, in some instances, is the cost of admission. And so, that all adds up really quickly. And a $350 ticket turns into a $1,500 or $2,000… trip… weekend base before you eat at a restaurant or buy drinks… So, we’re really sensitive to that. As Knoxville has become more popular and the festival has become more popular, we’re seeing hotel prices rise. I think it’s unfortunately pricing some fans out of downtown, and now they’re having to stay further out and drive in, that type of stuff.

What does that city growth mean for you as a festival?… Are you already thinking you need more locations in the long run…?

Right. I don’t know. I think that remains to be seen. We are very happy with the current size of the festival. We’ve, especially coming out of COVID, grown it a little bit year over year. I think in terms of available venues in town, we’re kind of starting to hit a ceiling. We have capped the attendance and ticket sales the last few years because patron and fan experience is our top priority. We don’t want to oversell this event, because then what’s the point if you can’t get in to see shows? You may have noticed yesterday the capacity alerts going out through the app. We want to mitigate that as much as possible. The fan and artist experience is the number one priority for us.

How do you finance the festival? Is it mostly through tickets?

It’s ticket sales. Then there are some local arts organizations and philanthropists that very generously provide some funding for the festival. Sponsorship is a small part, corporate sponsorship. A lot of our partners and sponsors are local… We don’t have any mega corporate sponsors. We don’t have the Samsung stage at Big Ears or anything like that. (laughs) But then we also have a super strong, very generous individual donor base. Because Big Ears is a 501(c)(3) non-profit. We have a lot of very generous fans who believe in what we’re doing, believe in the power of art. Without their support and the support of the other organizations in town, this wouldn’t be possible on ticket sales alone.

Just out of interest, if you travel and go to other festivals, what are your favorite festivals? Inspiration-wise?

Well, one no longer exists. It was Moogfest in Asheville, North Carolina.
I’ve been there twice. I just thought about it walking around here.
Right. It’s very similar… That programming, I think, was amazing… So that, and then I’ll always have a very special place in my heart for Bonnaroo because that was one of the first major festivals I’d ever been to. And it was kind of there that it clicked (snaps fingers), I thought, ‘Oh. Somehow I want to be involved in this.’ …I want to give that feeling that I was having and experiencing to others.

[At this point, Ashley Capps briefly enters with his wife Birgit, exchanges pleasantries, learns about the interview, mentions a donor event and food, and departs. The interruption is brief and friendly, underscoring the working-festival atmosphere.]

Is there one performance over the years that stands out as your definitive Big Ears performance?

There have been all kinds of moments… There are a few that stick out. In my first year working, 2014… Keiji Haino was here… We had a documentary team… they wanted to interview Keiji Haino. However, he does not speak any English… I had to find a Japanese translator… The interview itself with the translator was such a magical experience… she said that her body and spirit had a transformation when Keiji Haino said those things to her. It was just a really special, magical moment…
Then, last year we had André 3000 here… On Sunday, I found myself in the venue where he was performing and just had to sit down and do some emails… Out comes André onto the stage by himself, and he’s just sitting there practicing flute… It was just me and him in the room, and I’m sitting there thinking, ‘This… I am the only one.’ (laughs) It was just really cool… I’m a huge OutKast fan. I love his flute album. So for me, that was really cool and special.

Is there any artist you haven’t had here where you would say, ‘This is really on the wish list’?

I’ve got my own personal wish list… Well, this might be funny for some of your readers and might embarrass my artistic director, but I’m a very big fan of the Grateful Dead. (laughs) I would love it if there was some way to creatively weave, like, Bob Weir and Wolf Bros—Don Was is here this year—some way to creatively weave that culture into the fabric of the festival one day. That would be one thing that I would selfishly, personally, really love to see.

Bryan, thanks so much for your time. I know how tough your week is.

No problem. It’s a pleasure… I’m just so glad that you’re having a great time… As the festival director, I’m the air traffic control. I’m watching all the planes land and making sure they take off… working hand in hand with [the teams] to plan all year long, troubleshoot issues as they arise, and make sure folks like you are having a great time.

It’s very smooth here. Everything is on time. I haven’t had anything to complain about (laughs)… Everybody’s super friendly too.

That’s that Southern hospitality. That Southern charm (laughs)… That comes from us at the top. We direct our staff and security to be as friendly as possible. Kill them with kindness… You never know what somebody else is going through, and you should always treat people with respect and kindness… People are here spending a lot of money, spending their time, and we want everybody to have an amazing weekend and the best time and experience that they possibly can.